Valkyrie Valor might need to go to whoever made the decision to cut Vanloo because I don't know if it looks like this on the road with a lot of Vanloo minutes. It certainly didn't earlier in the season.
Well, regardless of how one feels about jvl, I have to give props to Kaitlyn Chen for improving quickly and finding ways to help the team. She looks like a legit bench player now, and not a substitute warm body. Also, seems like the kind of player that Kerr would love.
I've seen a number that WNBA players get 9.3% of Basketball-Related Income. I've also seen newer numbers that dispute that and get 20-25%. A bit suspicious. Anyway, using either number, if you get the BRI share to 50% like in the NBA, that will only get the team salary cap to around 5/6 of JK's salary. But it's a start.
Hmm. Maybe. The problem with life is that you can't do control experiments. Are there any other uncontrolled variables other than Vanloo's departure? Yes, there are many.
Most importantly, this was a brand new team with almost no one who had ever played together before running a new system for everyone with a rookie head coach. It would not be surprising if this were a factor. They won the last 2 games that Vanloo played in and then went 6-4 without her to improve over their first 10 game record of 4-5. Not obvious that Vanloo was the deciding factor here.
Did they play exactly the same opponents in their first 9 with Vanloo vs. their next 10 without? You know they didn't (plus other teams change depending on their circumstances)
If it was a player, maybe it wasn't Vanloo at all, but the addition of Amihere?
I bet others could think of a lot of other factors independent of Vanloo's presence on the team.
So, really not a lot of evidence to support your theory. Again I do think they probably made the right decision for several reasons considering both short and long term development of the franchise but your contention that Vanloo is not a good player and was the problem is not supported by almost any facts (don't forget she was a key player on a team that just won Eurobasket - that's a pretty good result).
On top of that all your posts about it have included a hint of subtle unpleasantness directed towards Vanloo (regardless of her ability) and other posters, which is both unnecessary and not, I think, like your normal posting persona, so you might want to consider your tone if you are interested in engaging other posters here.
Isn't it a standard part of basketball discourse to talk about things that happened in the past, especially the recent past? Isn't a postgame thread definitionally talking about things that are in the past? I think that their increased competitiveness on the road lately is a pretty relevant topic, and a mention of replacing Vanloo minutes with more Martin/Hayes/Chen minutes is a basketball analysis no?
Also, and this is a genuine question not a gotcha, it's your site so it's your rules. This type of discussion was had quite frequently on the other site after the trade deadline for the Warriors when we talked about the lack of Schroder, the lack of Wiggins, the lack of TJD, the lack of Kuminga, etc. Is there a different standard for this site? It's fine if there is but I'd like to know and not get banned because given your role I am interpreting this as a "don't make a comment like this again" warning rather than a disagreement. But maybe I'm overthinking it and you are just expressing your opinion as well?
Thank you for asking. As a general approach, I would like to establish a more positive tone here so that everyone is encouraged to post here without people worrying that other commenters will trash them or crap disrespectfully on their favorite players.
In your case, you haven’t posted here much and your first comment I remember was right after the shocking waiver of Vanloo saying, basically, I’m glad she’s gone. No one has to like a player or a coach, but there’s a time and place and manner. That was emotionally like going to a funeral and saying I’m glad she’s dead. Very tone-deaf.
This is your second comment I’ve noticed and it’s criticizing Vanloo again(!) and in a totally hypothetical way — hey we would suck if JVL were still on the team. If you’d been posting a bunch of positive stuff about other players or living and dying with the wins and losses, and built up some social capital, it wouldn’t stand out. But right now on this site, you’re the guy who showed up to trash JVL at her funeral and showed up again to insult her.
So in short, please post here as if the Valks are people’s favorite team and as if each player past and present is someone’s favorite player *and you don’t want to piss people off*.
I know that’s a little different from DNHQ, but that’s my aim. There are ways for us to share, question and disagree with each other even with that baseline.
> That was emotionally like going to a funeral and saying I’m glad she’s dead. Very tone-deaf.
Well I certainly do not agree with this claim or that it is disrespectful to be glad someone is no longer employed by a basketball team, find it kinda ridiculous tbh. I've also definitely had more than two comments on this site but it's your site so I'll respect if you prefer me not posting here, no hard feelings.
I realized during the Kate Martin interview that they will be playing in Vegas during summer league, and it made me wonder if any Dubs will show up for the game. In particular, since they usually rent a gym and have scrimmages for the vets, would not surprise me to see a certain young, energetic, curly headed chap jumping up and down on Saturday
-I watched the game on tape delay (like many) but I accidentally saw the headline for this post before I watched so I knew the outcome. That makes watching a totally different experience. Reminds you that the tenor of a game can change completely and you have to bring it the whole game
-It pains me to say this, but Chen looks better than Vanloo and I think they made the right choice (poor execution notwithstanding).
- looks like they are phasing out Talbot so Eric's prediction of Talbot being the one to go is looking more likely
- I kind of agree with the poster who was surprised by the lack of PT for the bench late in the 4th with the game decided. I thought maybe they had already played Leite all the minutes secretly allotted to her this came but a little more Amihere and some Zandalasini and maybe even a little Talbot wouldn't have hurt anything
-speaking of Amihere, wanted to chime in a thought about the debate below about her PT. I love her game and I was disappointed when they released her in the preseason, but I also love Fágbénlé and I think she contributes a lot more to the team than her counting stats. Why does a little more time for Amihere have to come at Fágbénlé's expense(I don't see their skill sets overlapping that much)? In some games chop a minute or two off Thornton, Billings and maybe even Martin and you get an extra 4-6 minutes for her.
- Last thought: Nakase has the best "I can NOT believe you made that call" face of any coach. She looks like aliens landed and then made the call! :D
I was really happy to see Leite back. I wonder if Nat is highly methodical in general. Her approach to reintegrating players would suggest this. I also saw (not sure if already posted) an Ingemi blue sky post about Salaün/Zando telling her it’s taking time to transition back to WNBA-style ball after tourney Euro ball.
So that may explain Ceci’s dnp. I hope so, ‘cause I worry she’s on the bubble with Talbot. I suspect LA could also be on the bubble. The rosters and the season are so short, these decisions are kinda f-ed up. Lastly, if Amihere is the one cut, it would piss off a certain commenter, which would be kinda funny to me. (I like all the players, hate the 12-woman roster fwiw.)
It's really tough for Coach Nat to manage the playing time with such a flat roster. By "flat", I mean you can make an argument for playing time from spots 1 to 12. And they can all contribute to winning.
Sorry about the headline. I actually contemplated delaying the post so people could watch spoiler free. Or giving it an ambiguous title like “a great empire falls” like the Delphi prophecy. But I ended up just sending it out figuring people could ignore it.
I have a similar issue with Dub Nation HQ… subscribers just know now that the spoiler is coming so don’t read it. Maybe that will eventually be true for VN.
Woah! No apology necessary. You're totally right that people can just ignore it. I'm no noob to either the internet or your sites and knew I was gonna get spoiled. I take responisbility for wanting to visit anyway :D
Sorry if it sounded like complaining. I was just commenting about how the "feel" of the game is so different when you know the outcome. Remember the Vs were down early and it looked like Clark was gonna go on one of her heaters against us. Even during the 2nd as the Vs reeled the Fever in and then passed them it still felt very competitive for a while. I thought the blow out was in full force early in the third but with about 2 minutes to go in the 3rd the Fever got to within 5 and looked like they had found a rhythm. OK, after that the Vs put them away and had a 10 or 15 ish point lead a few minutes later when the quarter ended, but the during the game feel for 2.5 quarters or so was quite different than the outcome.
Burton playing well this season has me satisfied like a cat with cream. After witnessing her defense/passing and noticing her great FT% throughout her career, I took the bet that her 3 pt% would improve with more opportunity/minutes and it seems like the ball is finally bouncing her way!!!
If she can continue this improvement and become 3 pt shooter at least on open shots/catch and shoot, I truly think that along with her passing/defense she'll be a key piece in any future title run!!
Temi had 7 pts/5 rbd/2 ast in 19 minutes Amihere had 4 pt/6 rbd/2 ast in 9 minutes.
If we equalize the minutes, Amihere would have produced 8.4 pts / 12.7 reb / 4.2 ast. So why is Amihere not receiving more minutes?
If I had to guess, it would be because of a greater propensity for TO's but that it seems ridiculous to not play Amihere for essentially 1 TO. Perhaps I'm being optimistic, but I believe Amihere can be coached to at least 1 less TO per game.
What other reasons do u guys think Amihere hasn't been receiving minutes?
1. Temi has been playing vs starters and LA vs benches. I know you know that you can’t just add minutes to a player and expect them to keep their current efficiencies.
2. LA makes a ton of errors (travels, fouls, bad rotations) along with the great stuff.
3. Temi is the starting center that everyone seems to believe in. She seems to be able to bang against large centers better than LA for the moment.
4. Demoting Temi for a youngster who is making a lot of errors is not good for team culture. Speaking frankly, LA kind of lost GSV the NYL game. In a one-basket game, she blew the game plan and went under on ball screens for Marine on three straight plays for 9 points and also unleashed Johannes as a threat to warp the defense. None of those count as turnovers. She has to earn it.
5. Nakase already benched Burton and Zandalasini to play LA. She’s getting playing time already at the expense of good players.
Ooh, looks like we actually disagree on how valuable per-36 stats are at predicting future performance.
Let me introduce you to what I like to call the “Milsap Doctrine.” It was a study that looked at 17 players who got extended starter-level minutes due to injuries on their teams. The findings? Their scoring rates went up slightly, while shooting percentages and rebounding held steady—even with the increased workload. Interestingly, foul rates actually declined, and steals/blocks dipped just a bit.
This makes sense because the starters vs bench dichotomy that you described IMHO isn't as relevant in the modern WNBA where starters/bench players intermix throughout the game rather than doing hockey substitutions. There is a slight difference which emerges from the beginning of the game/half time, but I'd argue that this difference is MORE than made upf or by the fact that players have a chance to get warm and play through their mistakes instead of constantly watching the bench and waiting for their coach to pull them from the game so they play better.
So, bringing it back to Amihere—her efficiency and rebounding should stay excellent, her scoring rate should go up, and sure, her block rate might dip slightly—but given that she’s already the best shot blocker on the team by a solid margin, she can afford that drop and still dominate.
3. There is strong selection bias because those players who got starter-level minutes are those whom the coach thought could succeed in that team context. I'd rather see a study of rates for all players as a function of minutes.
4. Plenty of anecdotal evidence to the contrary, so these results are not uniform. For instance, Podz last year got a bigger role and his efficiency went down. Also the much tracked case of Robert Covington who was an analytics darling, but he also did not scale.
5. Related to (4), in the paper itself, there are many cases of players who declined. Thus it is a mistake to say Amihere's efficiency and rebounding "should" stay excellent. I think you are overstating the precision of this study.
6. In fact, if you are really going to believe in the paper results, you should believe that WHEN THE COACH ELEVATES a player, then and only then does a player's efficiency often (but not always) continue or improve. The paper has no application for situations separate from a coach's judgment and can NOT be used to support an argument that Nakase is irresponsible to limit LA's minutes.
As for the rest of the argument, I just don’t see it the same way. I don’t think LA consistently makes bad rotation decisions. In fact, I think she holds her own pretty well. Her athleticism gives her an edge—she can tag the opposing guard and recover to the big in ways that Temi and Billings just can’t. Her block percentage reflects the impact she has as a help defender, and from what I’ve seen, she’s been solid in that role.
You brought up LA supposedly costing GSV the NYL game—but that’s one game. A tiny sample size. Why not look at the fact that the GSV have been 8.1 points better with her on the floor over eight games? Or that they’ve been 6.8 points worse with Temi over the last thirteen? That’s a much clearer trend.
And honestly, the fact that Nakase trusts Temi… doesn’t really move the needle for me. Sure, it’s something to take into account, but I’ve been a Raiders fan for almost two decades. I’ve seen what bad decision-making looks like up close, and I’ve learned not to just trust coaching decision-making until they've earned it. I prefer to evaluate players based on what they actually do on the court—and judge coaching decisions through that lens.
I think Nakase is doing a great job and has shown a greater willingness than normal to shake up her rotation. I think taking an expansion team to a 10-9 record despite constant lineup upheaval speaks for itself.
You're welcome to have the last word on this.
I do think you'll be trolling if you act like there aren't a dozen reasons why Nakase could be justified in her coaching, even if you completely disagree. So while posts like "LA should play more because..." are welcome, further posts like "what reason could NN have to not play LA" are not welcome as they ignore the many replies you're received.
I was quite enjoying this back and forth, but this last turn leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
Randomly bringing up trolling in relation to my disagreement with Nakase's decision-making because THERE COULD BE A REASON SHE'S RIGHT is. . . odd. Nobody said she couldn't be right . . . just that I had yet to see a good reason for why she was.
Randomly mentioning how specific types of posts would be unwelcome because they're proof that I ignored the replies I've received . . . is also odd. What part of my meaningful and in depth engagement with the replies at all indicated that I would ignore that info in some future post?
My conclusion? This all just seems like a thinly veiled attempt at calling me a troll. Whatevs, I'm done with this convo.
Fouls can't be the reason that she's consistently gotten less minutes than Temi! Temi averages 5.0 fouls per 36 compared to Amihere's 4.2 over the course of the season.
I know you like to watch film on players. Why are you relying solely on these suspicious incomparable rate statistics? 4.2 fouls/36 against the bench is completely different from 5.0 fouls per 36 against starters.
I’ve given a bunch of reasons above why Temi is playing over LA. I get that you prefer LA. In some ways I do too, but these rate stats are not convincing me at all.
Well first off, if you read the post above, it’s pretty clear I value those rate stats more than you do.
And yeah, I absolutely love watching film on players—but what are we supposed to do when you say she makes bad rotations and I just... disagree based on what I’ve seen? That’s the nature of the eye test. We’re at an impasse, because I can’t disprove what you saw, and you can’t disprove what I saw.
That’s where stats come in—not as a replacement for film, but as a way to complement it. They’re not perfect (no stat ever is), but when I say Amihere makes smart rotations and then point to her excellent block % as evidence of her help defense, my claim has a bit more weight. When I say she’s a better scorer than Temi and back it up with higher per-minute scoring and better efficiency, that adds credibility. Same goes for her passing—if I say she’s better and then show she has nearly a 5% advantage in assist rate over Temi, suddenly it’s not just an opinion, it’s a supported argument.
So yes, I watch film. You watch film. But I bring in stats to back up what I see, because I know I’m human—I can have biases, I can miss things. The numbers help me double-check my own perspective.
Nah, Illiana has got a very interesting skillset that should absolutely get some run to see what she can do even if it takes Temi or LA's minutes. She can shoot/pass/score.
What frustrates me is that in a season where we're supposed to be testing players out and developing young talent, we have a young talent in Amihere who is statistically excellent in most areas and producing better than our current starter AND YET she's not gotten a run of 2-3 games with greater minutes to see how she performs!
In fact, she gets the least amount of minutes on the team in this last game. I just don't understand it at all.
Small steps. Amihere was out of the league just about a month ago. She got a chance when Linskens left the team, and now she's getting rewarded with the team cutting Vanloo and keeping LA. From out of the league and playing pickup ball in Toronto to keep in shape, to getting a trial run, and now on the team for the rest of the season. LA has made a lot of progress in such a short time.
I love that Coach Nakase and the team gave LA another chance; however, I didn't like that Julie Vanloo got cut; it threw me for aloop when it happened. I do like LA because I think she contributes to the team defense, but I do agree about the travels, fouls and bad rotations. I do think she can improve on those, but the one thing I don't like about LA is that she sweeps her elbows around seemingly recklessly. I'm always afraid for the other players around her when that happens. The more she does it, the less I like her. I don't like I when other players do it, even in the NBA. I get that it's to protect the ball, but I've seen Steph do it without the elbows sticking out and sweeping around. This is just my own preference and not indicative of my bbiq, of which I am, admittedly, lacking.
I really enjoyed the different rotations today, it was great to see the team not relying so heavily on the starters. Even Natalie mentioned they “ran out of gas in the 4th quarter Monday vs. Atlanta” (via Matt Lively), so it’s nice to see an adjustment already. Always love a family style meal 🙂↕️
[[ With its 10th victory in its 19th game on the year, Golden State becomes the third WNBA expansion team all-time to reach 10 wins in 20 or fewer games (1999 Minnesota Lynx - 16 games; 1998 Detroit Shock - 19 games).
Veronica Burton made a career-high five threes on six attempts (83.3 percent), scoring 21 points while adding eight rebounds and six assists and a +/- of +22. It’s Burton’s third 20+ scoring performance of the season. The guard also had one steal which was the 100th of her career. ]]
I’m pretty annoyed with NN’s choices today. She calls a TO at 4-something in Q4, up 18, and doesn’t get Ceci (+Carla back) on the floor? Martin/Chen too many minutes for their usefulness. Especially after that dud in ATL, I don’t understand how Nat forgets the Euros’ offensive advantage.
*The argument of “Well it worked” falls flat for me when the Fever’s offense was ass today, beyond anything GSV defense was doing.
"beyond anything GSV defense was doing" is carrying a lot of water here. Personally, I saw an incredibly intimidating V's D that seemed to knock the Fever off their collective rocker.
• Looking at the box score, VB really lit it up from three. 5 of 6! Smokin!!
• Looks like a great team effort this morning. Everyone scored and the minutes distribution seems well spread. Should be really interesting when Rupert joins the fold.
• Z didn't play today, but it looks like Nakase is easing each Euro player in, I like it.
• Sorry for the Indy kids that they had to witness that beatdown, but maybe they found some Valks players to root for now 😁
Vanloo shot back to back 3's but Sparks went down by ten after she came in.
She ended up 5-7 on threes… and (-4).
Chaos on, my goddess, chaos on
Vs the Lynx though.
Valkyrie Valor might need to go to whoever made the decision to cut Vanloo because I don't know if it looks like this on the road with a lot of Vanloo minutes. It certainly didn't earlier in the season.
Well, regardless of how one feels about jvl, I have to give props to Kaitlyn Chen for improving quickly and finding ways to help the team. She looks like a legit bench player now, and not a substitute warm body. Also, seems like the kind of player that Kerr would love.
Swap JK for Kaitlyn Chen :)
Now we're talking!
Sorry the cap rules prevent it. JK is making about 6 times more than the salary cap of the entire Valkyries team.
But with that new CBA...
I've seen a number that WNBA players get 9.3% of Basketball-Related Income. I've also seen newer numbers that dispute that and get 20-25%. A bit suspicious. Anyway, using either number, if you get the BRI share to 50% like in the NBA, that will only get the team salary cap to around 5/6 of JK's salary. But it's a start.
Hmm. Maybe. The problem with life is that you can't do control experiments. Are there any other uncontrolled variables other than Vanloo's departure? Yes, there are many.
Most importantly, this was a brand new team with almost no one who had ever played together before running a new system for everyone with a rookie head coach. It would not be surprising if this were a factor. They won the last 2 games that Vanloo played in and then went 6-4 without her to improve over their first 10 game record of 4-5. Not obvious that Vanloo was the deciding factor here.
Did they play exactly the same opponents in their first 9 with Vanloo vs. their next 10 without? You know they didn't (plus other teams change depending on their circumstances)
If it was a player, maybe it wasn't Vanloo at all, but the addition of Amihere?
I bet others could think of a lot of other factors independent of Vanloo's presence on the team.
So, really not a lot of evidence to support your theory. Again I do think they probably made the right decision for several reasons considering both short and long term development of the franchise but your contention that Vanloo is not a good player and was the problem is not supported by almost any facts (don't forget she was a key player on a team that just won Eurobasket - that's a pretty good result).
On top of that all your posts about it have included a hint of subtle unpleasantness directed towards Vanloo (regardless of her ability) and other posters, which is both unnecessary and not, I think, like your normal posting persona, so you might want to consider your tone if you are interested in engaging other posters here.
she's gone, she can't hurt you anymore, no need to shoot strays at her grave
Isn't it a standard part of basketball discourse to talk about things that happened in the past, especially the recent past? Isn't a postgame thread definitionally talking about things that are in the past? I think that their increased competitiveness on the road lately is a pretty relevant topic, and a mention of replacing Vanloo minutes with more Martin/Hayes/Chen minutes is a basketball analysis no?
Also, and this is a genuine question not a gotcha, it's your site so it's your rules. This type of discussion was had quite frequently on the other site after the trade deadline for the Warriors when we talked about the lack of Schroder, the lack of Wiggins, the lack of TJD, the lack of Kuminga, etc. Is there a different standard for this site? It's fine if there is but I'd like to know and not get banned because given your role I am interpreting this as a "don't make a comment like this again" warning rather than a disagreement. But maybe I'm overthinking it and you are just expressing your opinion as well?
Thank you for asking. As a general approach, I would like to establish a more positive tone here so that everyone is encouraged to post here without people worrying that other commenters will trash them or crap disrespectfully on their favorite players.
In your case, you haven’t posted here much and your first comment I remember was right after the shocking waiver of Vanloo saying, basically, I’m glad she’s gone. No one has to like a player or a coach, but there’s a time and place and manner. That was emotionally like going to a funeral and saying I’m glad she’s dead. Very tone-deaf.
This is your second comment I’ve noticed and it’s criticizing Vanloo again(!) and in a totally hypothetical way — hey we would suck if JVL were still on the team. If you’d been posting a bunch of positive stuff about other players or living and dying with the wins and losses, and built up some social capital, it wouldn’t stand out. But right now on this site, you’re the guy who showed up to trash JVL at her funeral and showed up again to insult her.
So in short, please post here as if the Valks are people’s favorite team and as if each player past and present is someone’s favorite player *and you don’t want to piss people off*.
I know that’s a little different from DNHQ, but that’s my aim. There are ways for us to share, question and disagree with each other even with that baseline.
> That was emotionally like going to a funeral and saying I’m glad she’s dead. Very tone-deaf.
Well I certainly do not agree with this claim or that it is disrespectful to be glad someone is no longer employed by a basketball team, find it kinda ridiculous tbh. I've also definitely had more than two comments on this site but it's your site so I'll respect if you prefer me not posting here, no hard feelings.
Not sure if this link will work. But there's a clip of Julie laughing it up with Cam Brink at practice. So glad to see JVL happy.
https://www.threads.com/@thinkreyrey/post/DL5OR71xni2?xmt=AQF01lBW6TBN92LNfC_ek0Usg1n_UU7x8FRgVVkiWQtEDA
Really no update on the socials after A'ja she had an MRI on her wrist....
I realized during the Kate Martin interview that they will be playing in Vegas during summer league, and it made me wonder if any Dubs will show up for the game. In particular, since they usually rent a gym and have scrimmages for the vets, would not surprise me to see a certain young, energetic, curly headed chap jumping up and down on Saturday
Would be nice to see JK there with Podz
Some random comments
-I watched the game on tape delay (like many) but I accidentally saw the headline for this post before I watched so I knew the outcome. That makes watching a totally different experience. Reminds you that the tenor of a game can change completely and you have to bring it the whole game
-It pains me to say this, but Chen looks better than Vanloo and I think they made the right choice (poor execution notwithstanding).
- looks like they are phasing out Talbot so Eric's prediction of Talbot being the one to go is looking more likely
- I kind of agree with the poster who was surprised by the lack of PT for the bench late in the 4th with the game decided. I thought maybe they had already played Leite all the minutes secretly allotted to her this came but a little more Amihere and some Zandalasini and maybe even a little Talbot wouldn't have hurt anything
-speaking of Amihere, wanted to chime in a thought about the debate below about her PT. I love her game and I was disappointed when they released her in the preseason, but I also love Fágbénlé and I think she contributes a lot more to the team than her counting stats. Why does a little more time for Amihere have to come at Fágbénlé's expense(I don't see their skill sets overlapping that much)? In some games chop a minute or two off Thornton, Billings and maybe even Martin and you get an extra 4-6 minutes for her.
- Last thought: Nakase has the best "I can NOT believe you made that call" face of any coach. She looks like aliens landed and then made the call! :D
I was really happy to see Leite back. I wonder if Nat is highly methodical in general. Her approach to reintegrating players would suggest this. I also saw (not sure if already posted) an Ingemi blue sky post about Salaün/Zando telling her it’s taking time to transition back to WNBA-style ball after tourney Euro ball.
So that may explain Ceci’s dnp. I hope so, ‘cause I worry she’s on the bubble with Talbot. I suspect LA could also be on the bubble. The rosters and the season are so short, these decisions are kinda f-ed up. Lastly, if Amihere is the one cut, it would piss off a certain commenter, which would be kinda funny to me. (I like all the players, hate the 12-woman roster fwiw.)
It's really tough for Coach Nat to manage the playing time with such a flat roster. By "flat", I mean you can make an argument for playing time from spots 1 to 12. And they can all contribute to winning.
I agree. It's tough.
Sorry about the headline. I actually contemplated delaying the post so people could watch spoiler free. Or giving it an ambiguous title like “a great empire falls” like the Delphi prophecy. But I ended up just sending it out figuring people could ignore it.
I have a similar issue with Dub Nation HQ… subscribers just know now that the spoiler is coming so don’t read it. Maybe that will eventually be true for VN.
Woah! No apology necessary. You're totally right that people can just ignore it. I'm no noob to either the internet or your sites and knew I was gonna get spoiled. I take responisbility for wanting to visit anyway :D
Sorry if it sounded like complaining. I was just commenting about how the "feel" of the game is so different when you know the outcome. Remember the Vs were down early and it looked like Clark was gonna go on one of her heaters against us. Even during the 2nd as the Vs reeled the Fever in and then passed them it still felt very competitive for a while. I thought the blow out was in full force early in the third but with about 2 minutes to go in the 3rd the Fever got to within 5 and looked like they had found a rhythm. OK, after that the Vs put them away and had a 10 or 15 ish point lead a few minutes later when the quarter ended, but the during the game feel for 2.5 quarters or so was quite different than the outcome.
Burton playing well this season has me satisfied like a cat with cream. After witnessing her defense/passing and noticing her great FT% throughout her career, I took the bet that her 3 pt% would improve with more opportunity/minutes and it seems like the ball is finally bouncing her way!!!
If she can continue this improvement and become 3 pt shooter at least on open shots/catch and shoot, I truly think that along with her passing/defense she'll be a key piece in any future title run!!
Temi had 7 pts/5 rbd/2 ast in 19 minutes Amihere had 4 pt/6 rbd/2 ast in 9 minutes.
If we equalize the minutes, Amihere would have produced 8.4 pts / 12.7 reb / 4.2 ast. So why is Amihere not receiving more minutes?
If I had to guess, it would be because of a greater propensity for TO's but that it seems ridiculous to not play Amihere for essentially 1 TO. Perhaps I'm being optimistic, but I believe Amihere can be coached to at least 1 less TO per game.
What other reasons do u guys think Amihere hasn't been receiving minutes?
1. Temi has been playing vs starters and LA vs benches. I know you know that you can’t just add minutes to a player and expect them to keep their current efficiencies.
2. LA makes a ton of errors (travels, fouls, bad rotations) along with the great stuff.
3. Temi is the starting center that everyone seems to believe in. She seems to be able to bang against large centers better than LA for the moment.
4. Demoting Temi for a youngster who is making a lot of errors is not good for team culture. Speaking frankly, LA kind of lost GSV the NYL game. In a one-basket game, she blew the game plan and went under on ball screens for Marine on three straight plays for 9 points and also unleashed Johannes as a threat to warp the defense. None of those count as turnovers. She has to earn it.
5. Nakase already benched Burton and Zandalasini to play LA. She’s getting playing time already at the expense of good players.
Ooh, looks like we actually disagree on how valuable per-36 stats are at predicting future performance.
Let me introduce you to what I like to call the “Milsap Doctrine.” It was a study that looked at 17 players who got extended starter-level minutes due to injuries on their teams. The findings? Their scoring rates went up slightly, while shooting percentages and rebounding held steady—even with the increased workload. Interestingly, foul rates actually declined, and steals/blocks dipped just a bit.
This makes sense because the starters vs bench dichotomy that you described IMHO isn't as relevant in the modern WNBA where starters/bench players intermix throughout the game rather than doing hockey substitutions. There is a slight difference which emerges from the beginning of the game/half time, but I'd argue that this difference is MORE than made upf or by the fact that players have a chance to get warm and play through their mistakes instead of constantly watching the bench and waiting for their coach to pull them from the game so they play better.
So, bringing it back to Amihere—her efficiency and rebounding should stay excellent, her scoring rate should go up, and sure, her block rate might dip slightly—but given that she’s already the best shot blocker on the team by a solid margin, she can afford that drop and still dominate.
That's very very interesting, but I'm not convinced.
1. That's the NBA not the WNBA and I don't accept hand wave generalizations.
2. The Pelton paper on The Milsap Doctrine is from 2007. Maybe you have a different paper in mind. https://web.archive.org/web/20080122202848/http://ballhype.com/story/the_paul_millsap_doctrine/
3. There is strong selection bias because those players who got starter-level minutes are those whom the coach thought could succeed in that team context. I'd rather see a study of rates for all players as a function of minutes.
4. Plenty of anecdotal evidence to the contrary, so these results are not uniform. For instance, Podz last year got a bigger role and his efficiency went down. Also the much tracked case of Robert Covington who was an analytics darling, but he also did not scale.
5. Related to (4), in the paper itself, there are many cases of players who declined. Thus it is a mistake to say Amihere's efficiency and rebounding "should" stay excellent. I think you are overstating the precision of this study.
6. In fact, if you are really going to believe in the paper results, you should believe that WHEN THE COACH ELEVATES a player, then and only then does a player's efficiency often (but not always) continue or improve. The paper has no application for situations separate from a coach's judgment and can NOT be used to support an argument that Nakase is irresponsible to limit LA's minutes.
As for the rest of the argument, I just don’t see it the same way. I don’t think LA consistently makes bad rotation decisions. In fact, I think she holds her own pretty well. Her athleticism gives her an edge—she can tag the opposing guard and recover to the big in ways that Temi and Billings just can’t. Her block percentage reflects the impact she has as a help defender, and from what I’ve seen, she’s been solid in that role.
You brought up LA supposedly costing GSV the NYL game—but that’s one game. A tiny sample size. Why not look at the fact that the GSV have been 8.1 points better with her on the floor over eight games? Or that they’ve been 6.8 points worse with Temi over the last thirteen? That’s a much clearer trend.
And honestly, the fact that Nakase trusts Temi… doesn’t really move the needle for me. Sure, it’s something to take into account, but I’ve been a Raiders fan for almost two decades. I’ve seen what bad decision-making looks like up close, and I’ve learned not to just trust coaching decision-making until they've earned it. I prefer to evaluate players based on what they actually do on the court—and judge coaching decisions through that lens.
I'm okay with disagreeing.
I think Nakase is doing a great job and has shown a greater willingness than normal to shake up her rotation. I think taking an expansion team to a 10-9 record despite constant lineup upheaval speaks for itself.
You're welcome to have the last word on this.
I do think you'll be trolling if you act like there aren't a dozen reasons why Nakase could be justified in her coaching, even if you completely disagree. So while posts like "LA should play more because..." are welcome, further posts like "what reason could NN have to not play LA" are not welcome as they ignore the many replies you're received.
Peace and Go Valks!
I was quite enjoying this back and forth, but this last turn leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
Randomly bringing up trolling in relation to my disagreement with Nakase's decision-making because THERE COULD BE A REASON SHE'S RIGHT is. . . odd. Nobody said she couldn't be right . . . just that I had yet to see a good reason for why she was.
Randomly mentioning how specific types of posts would be unwelcome because they're proof that I ignored the replies I've received . . . is also odd. What part of my meaningful and in depth engagement with the replies at all indicated that I would ignore that info in some future post?
My conclusion? This all just seems like a thinly veiled attempt at calling me a troll. Whatevs, I'm done with this convo.
I was trying to gently guide you to a less hostile way of posting. Farewell.
Fouls. From the second she entered the game.
LOVED her rebounding, though.
Fouls can't be the reason that she's consistently gotten less minutes than Temi! Temi averages 5.0 fouls per 36 compared to Amihere's 4.2 over the course of the season.
I know you like to watch film on players. Why are you relying solely on these suspicious incomparable rate statistics? 4.2 fouls/36 against the bench is completely different from 5.0 fouls per 36 against starters.
I’ve given a bunch of reasons above why Temi is playing over LA. I get that you prefer LA. In some ways I do too, but these rate stats are not convincing me at all.
Well first off, if you read the post above, it’s pretty clear I value those rate stats more than you do.
And yeah, I absolutely love watching film on players—but what are we supposed to do when you say she makes bad rotations and I just... disagree based on what I’ve seen? That’s the nature of the eye test. We’re at an impasse, because I can’t disprove what you saw, and you can’t disprove what I saw.
That’s where stats come in—not as a replacement for film, but as a way to complement it. They’re not perfect (no stat ever is), but when I say Amihere makes smart rotations and then point to her excellent block % as evidence of her help defense, my claim has a bit more weight. When I say she’s a better scorer than Temi and back it up with higher per-minute scoring and better efficiency, that adds credibility. Same goes for her passing—if I say she’s better and then show she has nearly a 5% advantage in assist rate over Temi, suddenly it’s not just an opinion, it’s a supported argument.
So yes, I watch film. You watch film. But I bring in stats to back up what I see, because I know I’m human—I can have biases, I can miss things. The numbers help me double-check my own perspective.
Do you think I don't use stats???
Hmm, when they sign Rupert and she gets more minutes then either Temi or LA, I'm guessing you won't be thrilled.
Nah, Illiana has got a very interesting skillset that should absolutely get some run to see what she can do even if it takes Temi or LA's minutes. She can shoot/pass/score.
What frustrates me is that in a season where we're supposed to be testing players out and developing young talent, we have a young talent in Amihere who is statistically excellent in most areas and producing better than our current starter AND YET she's not gotten a run of 2-3 games with greater minutes to see how she performs!
In fact, she gets the least amount of minutes on the team in this last game. I just don't understand it at all.
Small steps. Amihere was out of the league just about a month ago. She got a chance when Linskens left the team, and now she's getting rewarded with the team cutting Vanloo and keeping LA. From out of the league and playing pickup ball in Toronto to keep in shape, to getting a trial run, and now on the team for the rest of the season. LA has made a lot of progress in such a short time.
I love that Coach Nakase and the team gave LA another chance; however, I didn't like that Julie Vanloo got cut; it threw me for aloop when it happened. I do like LA because I think she contributes to the team defense, but I do agree about the travels, fouls and bad rotations. I do think she can improve on those, but the one thing I don't like about LA is that she sweeps her elbows around seemingly recklessly. I'm always afraid for the other players around her when that happens. The more she does it, the less I like her. I don't like I when other players do it, even in the NBA. I get that it's to protect the ball, but I've seen Steph do it without the elbows sticking out and sweeping around. This is just my own preference and not indicative of my bbiq, of which I am, admittedly, lacking.
That was a great game.
I really enjoyed the different rotations today, it was great to see the team not relying so heavily on the starters. Even Natalie mentioned they “ran out of gas in the 4th quarter Monday vs. Atlanta” (via Matt Lively), so it’s nice to see an adjustment already. Always love a family style meal 🙂↕️
GSV reports:
[[ With its 10th victory in its 19th game on the year, Golden State becomes the third WNBA expansion team all-time to reach 10 wins in 20 or fewer games (1999 Minnesota Lynx - 16 games; 1998 Detroit Shock - 19 games).
Veronica Burton made a career-high five threes on six attempts (83.3 percent), scoring 21 points while adding eight rebounds and six assists and a +/- of +22. It’s Burton’s third 20+ scoring performance of the season. The guard also had one steal which was the 100th of her career. ]]
I’m pretty annoyed with NN’s choices today. She calls a TO at 4-something in Q4, up 18, and doesn’t get Ceci (+Carla back) on the floor? Martin/Chen too many minutes for their usefulness. Especially after that dud in ATL, I don’t understand how Nat forgets the Euros’ offensive advantage.
*The argument of “Well it worked” falls flat for me when the Fever’s offense was ass today, beyond anything GSV defense was doing.
"beyond anything GSV defense was doing" is carrying a lot of water here. Personally, I saw an incredibly intimidating V's D that seemed to knock the Fever off their collective rocker.
White did not do her offense any favors. Hull replaced by McDonald in starting lineup?
Excited to watch the replay tonight. Few notes.
• Looking at the box score, VB really lit it up from three. 5 of 6! Smokin!!
• Looks like a great team effort this morning. Everyone scored and the minutes distribution seems well spread. Should be really interesting when Rupert joins the fold.
• Z didn't play today, but it looks like Nakase is easing each Euro player in, I like it.
• Sorry for the Indy kids that they had to witness that beatdown, but maybe they found some Valks players to root for now 😁
I did wonder how many Kate Martin jerseys were in the audience. Had she ever lost to CC in the W?
On postgame show, Lively interviewed Martin/Hawkeyes fans who came from all over to see their heroes face off. Pretty cool.
By my count, Kate Martin is undefeated vs Clark, 2-0 with LVA vs IND and 2-0 this year with GSV. https://www.basketball-reference.com/wnba/players/m/martika01w/gamelog/2024/
Which major?