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Refugium's avatar

One take on Vs draft choices:

“If that expansion draft group actually ended up being their opening day roster in 2025, they'd have more players overseas at EuroBasket Women in June next year than they would in Valkyries uniforms playing WNBA games. “

Herhoopstats 12/10

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DubsNerd's avatar

CC named Time's athlete of the year. Congrats to her, and I'm sure the online discussion of this will be extremely sane and measured.

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5984712/2024/12/10/caitlin-clark-wnba-athlete-olympics-time?source=user-shared-article

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Eric Apricot's avatar

I think it’s pretty clear she should be. She was the focal point of a revolution in women’s basketball…

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Refugium's avatar

I’m wondering if that makes her the athlete of the year or the athletic celebrity of the year.

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Eric Apricot's avatar

Maybe both? I’m okay with other people thinking someone else should be the athlete of the year. I try not to get too deep into debates about undefined titles…

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Refugium's avatar

WNBA rule clarification: Anyone taken in the expansion draft can be waived by the first day of the season by the expansion team for $0 hit on the cap - but only removing contracts already in existence. Can't give them guaranteed money in February then escape for free in April.

Cohen B sky

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DubsNerd's avatar

seems like a team could trade assets and cash to the expansion team for them to agree to choose a player with a bad contract, and then waive them. Maybe that's too complicated.

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jeckyllhouse's avatar

speed run on trading cap space for picks

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Tim & Chris Burger's avatar

Totally awesome and badass, I love it. And I know it’s all subjective, as can be seen by Nellie’s valid opinion below, but I’m finding a dominant opposite reaction to Toronto’s rollout, where it’s mostly “it’s a ripoff of Indiana (Pacer)’s logo”, not to mention the name, that everyone seems to find boring and again, kinda too like Indiana (Pace=Tempo).

Toronto has a year to change course if they want to, but as far as our Valkyries and their design team and ideas, I’m definitely finding them inspired, and wanting ALL the merch. GSV’s killing it. And maybe my wallet thickness

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Refugium's avatar

They forgot to mention the big black goiter under her chin. And of course the sword is there, ad nauseam.

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Nellie's avatar

Yeah, can’t say this is really doing it for me. Feeling pretty jealous of the Toronto team’s logo and color scheme.

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GlueAndBold's avatar

I love the Valkyries colors, name and concept but agree the Valkyrie image could be better. The Toronto Pace are like burgundy and light blue?

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Refugium's avatar

I like the color combination.

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Run_TMC's avatar

So, for fun, I looked at a bunch of mock drafts. They are all pretty much identical for the first 2 picks and then radically different from picks 3-12 (Aces lost their pick, so no 13th pick) so I really know nothing more than I did before and I don't watch enough college to have my own opinions on anyone.

Based on their focus on international players in the expansion draft I think someone like Dominique Malonga or Ajsa Sivka seem like possibilities and also the type of player an expansion team would gamble on but many other players were also mocked to the Vs and a couple trades proposed as well.

There seems to be even less consensus about WNBA drafts than NBA drafts so I'm actually quite curious to see how the next few months go as far as team formation.

May 16th will be here before we know it!

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Refugium's avatar

You mentioned trades proposed. Can you give the reference?

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Run_TMC's avatar

I looked but I can't find it again (I just typed something like WNBA Mock Draft 2025 into google and then opened as many sites as I could stand in separate tabs and read through them quickly).

Anyway in my memory there wasn't much specific. Like I feel like one said that Chicago should trade down with the Vs but didn't offer specific suggestions for a trade. I only brought it up to suggest that there were a lot of possibilities out there for what the GSV personnel would be when the season starts.

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Refugium's avatar

Got it.

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DubsNerd's avatar

Good read. Interesting point about the higher $$$ with the new CBA will entice more Intl players to come over, so those contracts are relatively more valuable. Hadn't seen that mentioned anywhere else.

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DubsNerd's avatar

Ran across a good overview of FA and available players (I assume this is accurate, haven't had a chance to dig into it yet)

https://herhoopstats.substack.com/p/2025-wnba-free-agency-list

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Refugium's avatar

So, wondering how many of these players are cored. Stewart? For example.

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Refugium's avatar

https://herhoopstats.substack.com/p/wnba-core-player-designation-explained

Seems we won’t know who are the cored players until January.

I read that the Vs could core Billings in order to keep her, but they would have to pay her the supermax. I believe that’s what it said. And that is a pretty high price for a player of her caliber.

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Arnold's avatar

I hope the Valks invite UC Davis alum Morgan Bertsch to their camp. Mo fits the modern NBA - 6 ft 4 mobile 3pt shooting forward.

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Eric Apricot's avatar

So… what should we talk about on the site for the next few weeks until free agency at the start of Feb?

My ideas are:

- review of each drafted player and their contract status etc

- extended early Draft Tourney to help us follow the college basketball season

- interviews with experienced WNBA analysts (I have a few in mind, but also would need help figuring out what to ask about)

- survey of history of WNBA up till now

- the random press releases that GSV sends me… they will probably have events and announcements to keep mindshare through Feb.

- guest posts from you folks about whatever you want to talk about

I’m thinking of having a 1-2 posts / week pace. I liked doing the expansion draft preview team by team, but I didn’t like that there were so many… it’s more fun when all the commenters can return to the same page and interact.

Thoughts? Ideas?

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Tim & Chris Burger's avatar

I think those are all interesting, at your hands! But most importantly I think you should go with what you’ll find fun and interesting to post, and I like that you alluded to fun yourself there at the end regarding us all coming to the same page and interacting. What I really liked about watching the games I did throughout the last season as a first time WNBA fan is how much joy there is in each game and each arena, even just watching it on TV. It’s a really good vibe for the most part, even though all the drama and toxicity that did come with the agendas mostly surrounding the ugliest of Caitlin Clark discourses (not Caitlin herself who was class all the way, nor most of the players who did their best given the crazy circumstances).

It was kinda like a league where, if you imagined one with more than one Golden State Warriors in it (I’m talking the whole strength in numbers, weaponized joy thing), you’d be closer to the WNBA I think.

And yea, probably one or two posts a week is a good pace. There’s less games so no need to have too many posts a week either, and letting the community come together to the same few pages to talk to each other is pretty community minded too, which also goes along with a big theme of the W which really does seem like one big community minded league.

And on that note, finally, I don’t know how many other fan sites like this one exist for other W teams—I mean this whole Golden State Apricot Blogomatic Universe is the best of the best, so it’s one of a kind for sure—but if there’s others that wanna converse with ya too, that might be pretty cool. I think I remember that used to happen fairly regularly between GSOM and other fan sites back in the day, and I used to find that interesting getting “enemy” perspective but very good natured.

Especially with a smaller league it’s not overwhelming learning about other teams, but still there’s a lot to learn. But yeah, hopefully fun and learning. Something I always get from Dub Nation HQ and now more of it to look forward to here! But yeah, I hope you go with what you find enjoyable for you as a priority too, Eric, especially since you already give us so much, now across two sites!

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Refugium's avatar

In projected WNBA drafts a number of players names have come up as possible choices for DSV at pick #5. Two I have noticed so far are Fudd and Citron. I’m sure there are others and there’s really no way to predict this, of course. But those players are playing now, so it might be interesting to try to track some of these players.

If other people want to have a draft tourney, it would help to have actual experience watching these players. Otherwise it’s just a guessing game.

So I’m going to focus on those two players. They play each other on 12/12.

Example: “I view Soni (Citron) as a clear cut lottery pick. Her upside is oft under-discussed, because again, her game isn’t flashy. I also feel there’s a lack of understanding for how wings can develop in the W and in general. Citron isn’t a lead guard or even a combo; she brings value by being able to play the 3, the 2, sometimes the 4, and knowing how to execute at every position while being able to defend across the board. That kind of thing matters in college, but it is crucial in the WNBA.” Schindler 11/23

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Refugium's avatar

Notre Dame (with Citron) plays Conn (with Fudd) tomorrow at 5 PM.

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Refugium's avatar

1. Reviews

2. Interviews

3. What Nellie said.

4. What DN said

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Nellie's avatar

Sounds fun! Thanks for this, EA. Looking forward!

A thing I’m interested, either as a question for these analysts, or as its own feature: how the WNBA game has evolved schematically in the last few years, and where it might be headed. With any eye, obviously, toward GSV roster building.

The two teams in the finals were notable for five-out spacing, ball movement (#1 and #2 in assists, respectively), and 3pt shooting (#1 and #3 in makes, though not as high in attempts)—much of which tracks with how the NBA game is being played. But shooting percentages are a bit lower in the W, and there seem to be even fewer mobile bigs to go around, so I wonder if there are different mathematical or strategic tipping points, and different counters some teams might be able to employ.

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Refugium's avatar

Possibly relevant that the Aces had an NBA coach coaching them.

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Arnold's avatar

As a follower of women's hoops for the past few years, you're correct that the WNBA (and even women's college players) is following the NBA model of success with 5-out spacing and lots of switching / players that can guard multiple positions. Nowadays, it's very common that centers can shoot 3s. I think center Stef Dolson was leading the league in 3pt accuracy for most of the season - shooting 3s at over 45% with good volume. Women players are also copying the Steph Curry / Trae Young 3pt range model - with a good number of women capable of hitting 3s 5 feet beyond the arc. Ionescu, Caitlin Clark, Marina Mabrey, Kayla McBride.

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Nellie's avatar

True, and maybe it’s unfair to say there are fewer C’s with range to go around—they’re pretty scarce in the NBA, too, after all.

I guess, among other things, I’m wondering how completely folks expect the play styles in the two leagues to converge at this point, or if other differences— such as league-wide 3P%—mean the ideal attempt rate settles somewhat lower and leaves more space for other play styles and/or types of athletes to thrive.

To be specific: Frequent GSV mock-draftee Lauren Betts is a dominant, 6’7” center, but she has never attempted a 3-pointer in her career. Is that still a player type you can build around these days, or is it akin to drafting Jahlil Okafor in 2015?

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Arnold's avatar

Great comparison. Yes, I do think Lauren Betts would be similar to Jahlil Okafor. Effective college players, but unless Betts adds 3pt range or the ability to defend guards from the perimeter, she isn't a player you can really build around in the pro level. Good teams will draw her out on high pick and rolls or pick and pops. If she's available at #5, I would consider drafting her. But I would have the coaching staff work with her to add a 3pt shot. She does have good shooting mechanics. Similar to Brook Lopez - who didn't shoot 3s in his first 7+ seasons, but has good shot mechanics. Size and rim-protection is more useful in the WNBA vs the NBA.

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Refugium's avatar

Sabrina says she practices at the NBA line.

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Nellie's avatar

Oh, also, in case you’re still adding to your list of possible interviewees: Nekias Duncan and Steve Jones? I don’t listen to their podcast religiously by any means, but in the past I've appreciated how they get every bit as granular about the women’s game as they do about the men’s. That was a major rarity as of a year ago, if maybe somewhat less so now. (For the same reason, I’m looking forward to our first E1P: Valkyries edition ☺️)

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DubsNerd's avatar

Those sound good. Would also be interested in a discussion around EuroBasket 2025, and what are the chances that each of the international players skip the season, since that's either a big risk, or something they were planning on to give them room for more free agents without passing on getting a player's rights

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DubsNerd's avatar

That is, assuming someone has good info on this, I'll be watching out to see if anyone covers this

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GlueAndBold's avatar

That all sounds good.

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DubsNerd's avatar

Good article. Seems like his overall take is "I don't agree with their roster building philosophy" more so than I don't agree with some of these specific picks. I do wonder if the huge FA class coming up impacted the approach - grab some more vet players that you can quickly add a bunch of established players to next year, rather than a bunch of young players on rookie contracts that could spend a few years getting better together.

It does seem like the superteam approach has worked better in the W than in the NBA, with the Aces and Liberty both bringing in a number of FAs and having success.

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Refugium's avatar

Let’s see, Liberty did it by keeping a couple of younger players, bringing in FA superstars in the form of Stewart, JJ, and Sloot, plus Dolan. They added a couple of young foreign players, Han and Marine, (neither which played in the 23/34 season), They added two defensive specialists like the vet Thornton and Burke. (Except for Sabally occasionally , the few draft picks/yonguns basically never played). Then replaced young Marine with young Leonie.They pretty much remade the entire team with superstars and vet specialists, found one really talented rookie, while keeping Laney and potential superstar, Ionescu. Having 3 superstars plus 1 potential superstar seems to work! GS could try that :=))

PS Stewie, JJ, and Sloot came together as a package, player initiated. That worked! Maybe GS can find a winsome threesome.

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DubsNerd's avatar

Kate Martin is 6 feet? That's good height for a guard, somehow I had no idea she was that tall.

https://www.nbcsportsbayarea.com/wnba/golden-state-valkyries/wnba-expansion-draft-kate-martin-natalie-nakase/1810896/

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GlueAndBold's avatar

Fantastic page that lays out the contract details:

https://herhoopstats.com/salary-cap-sheet/wnba/team/2025/golden-state-valkyries-11efb2ba-e2c6-f520-8806-9a93b15b3fec/

Bottom line: Talbot, Thornton and Martin are signed for the coming season and Temi Fagbenle is a restricted free agent.

Kate Martin is the only player with a long contract, becoming an RFA in ‘28.

Burton, Vanloo and Zandalasini are all reserved and thus team-controlled.

Billings is the only UFA.

Lots more info there.

It’s clear that this team will have the flexibility to take big free agent swings, whether they go that direction or not.

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Refugium's avatar

Do the 3 who are reserved have to sign with Golden State?

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GlueAndBold's avatar

“A reserved player is free to negotiate a contract with their own team with different terms from the qualifying offer, but they may not negotiate with any other WNBA teams.”

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Refugium's avatar

Sorry to be so obtuse. But if reserved Player A decided she didn’t really want to play with Golden State, she could return to her previous team who could offer her $1 more than Golden State’s qualifying offer and thus keep her on the team?

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Refugium's avatar

Nope.

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Eric Apricot's avatar

My understanding -- and I am by no means a WNBA cap expert -- is that the reserved player has to accept the reserve qualifying offer or negotiate a better longer contract with the team or not play in the WNBA until they sign and play with that team.

As two practical examples from 2023:

1. Temi Fagbenle (new Valk!!) did not sign the reserve qualifying offer and she was not eligible to play in the WNBA. She played elsewhere and IND held her rights. Then she came back in 2024 and signed with IND. Her contract was a minimum (76,535), presumably because she didn't want to sign a longer contract and had no leverage to demand more from IND since as a reserved free agent, she could only negotiate with IND.

2. Ezi Magbegor was a reserved free agent with SEA (see https://www.espn.com/wnba/story/_/id/35381011/wnba-free-agency-2023-key-free-agents-questions-all-12-teams). She negotiated with SEA for a longer contract of 3y / $500k.

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Refugium's avatar

Got it, I think.

So reserve Player A has to accept the QA from Golden State or either retire or go play in another country. If she comes back, she still has to negotiate with Golden State.

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Eric Apricot's avatar

reserve Player A could (1) take the QO, (2) leave, or (3) negotiate a better contract. I believe GSV would keep her reserve free agent rights until she actually signs a GSV contract or is released.

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Tim & Chris Burger's avatar

Just a couple quick late and late night thoughts for my first ever Valkyrie Nation post (wohoo!!), regarding the players I am more familiar with outta the squad we got so far: it’s gonna be great to watch Kate Martin get much more playing time this year (hopefully). She was fun to watch when she got minutes in the earlier parts of last season when Chelsea Grey was still out due to injury.

Temi was fun too and same thing, hopefully more playing time (which means she’s healthy).

And Julie Vanloo: breakout sophomore year incoming ;) . Yeah I said it, I’m not even doing air quotes around “sophomore” or “last season rookie”, none of that. I’d still let her play in a theoretical rising stars challenge game if the wnba had one, I don’t care if she killing them young girls as a 30-something haha

Anyway looking forward to great ValkNation times!

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Tim & Chris Burger's avatar

Ok just one more thought. Or maybe question: It’s pronounced “Van Low” (the latter as in the opposite of “high”) right? That’s how the Olympic announcers were pronouncing it and I feel like they might know better even though she kept getting called “Van Lou” stateside. We should get that right, whatever it is

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DubsNerd's avatar

As I understand it, the Dutch/ Flemish pronunciation would be like "Vahn Low", so they had it right in the Olympics

https://www.si.com/onsi/womens-fastbreak/news/posts/belgium-s-julie-vanloo-s-name-caused-pronunciation-confusion-during-olympics-loss-to-team-usa-01j47s5taw5e

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Tim & Chris Burger's avatar

Thanks for sharing that! That tweet at the end where she pronounces it herself especially…

I hope the Valk organization and broadcast team honor that.

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Tim & Chris Burger's avatar

Also I’m just now wondering, why the heck did Indiana not protect Temi? That’s kinda wild

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DubsNerd's avatar

More from the Athletic:

Maria Conde and Carla Leite bring international experience to the squad, while Kate Martin and Julie Vanloo headlined the players with previous WNBA minutes under their belts.

Here's a closer look at the three-point history of all 11 players selected:

Cecilia Zandalasini - 41.5% in 72 career WNBA games.

Stephanie Talbot - 36% in 199 career WNBA games.

Kate Martin - 35.5% in 34 career WNBA games.

Iliana Rupert - 33% in 37 career WNBA games.

Kayla Thornton - 32.7% in 274 career WNBA games.

Julie Vanloo - 32.4% in 40 career WNBA games.

Veronica Burton - 29.7% in 107 career WNBA games.

Monique Billings - 18.2% in 213 career WNBA games.

Temi Fagbenle - 16.7 % in 91 career WNBA games.

Carla Leite - 40% in seven games in France-BWL, 33.3% in four games in EuroLeague.

Maria Conde - 35% in 89 career games in Czechia and Spain.

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Refugium's avatar

Thornton’s shooting varies wildly. She hits 5 3s in a row one game, then nothing for the next 4 games. (Slight exaggeration).

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GlueAndBold's avatar

The Buddy Thornton Experience

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Arnold's avatar

I follow the WNBA / college women's basketball, and half of these moves are head-scratchers. From Minnesota, one of Diamond Miller or Dorka should have been available. Why did they pick Zandalasini? From Dallas - I'm sure Awak Kuier or Stephanie Soares would have been available. Carla Leite? And from the Sparks, I'm sure Li Yueru would have been available. Stephanie Talbot is ok, but she doesn't really have much upside.

I think either a.) Valkyries are tanking b.) There's some behind the scenes mutual agreement that "we won't be jerks and poach your important players" c.) Maybe there's some pre-agreed trade agreement

Because there are so few roster spots available, there are lots of talented players out there that didn't even make it to a team. But I wish the FO drafted some young players with star potential out of this expansion draft.

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GlueAndBold's avatar

Two words: cap space. Only three of the players they picked are actually signed to a contract.

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Refugium's avatar

Going forward, don’t They have to sign the players to contracts? If so, that will use up more cap space?

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GlueAndBold's avatar

They don’t *have* to sign any of the unsigned players. I’m certain they hope to sign at least some of them. A lot depends on those players’ interests.

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Eric Apricot's avatar

Q. When did you find out today you were going to Golden State? Was it on the show? Did they call you before? How did you find out that you were going there?

KATE MARTIN: Actually I found out yesterday but wasn't even allowed to tell my family or anything. Had to keep it under wraps there.

But I was informed beforehand so I knew that I had all these media obligations. But obviously that doesn't really mean a whole lot. But it was really nice to know before watching it on TV and then just being like, oh, let me just join these Zoom calls and just think of everything off the top of my head, so I actually got to do some research and talk through some talking points before just chatting to you guys with not knowing anything.

...

Q. I wanted to know as someone from Illinois having spent so much time in Iowa and then obviously last season in Las Vegas, have you been to San Francisco before, and what are your expectations and what excites you the most about coming out to the west coast full time?

KATE MARTIN: I've never been to San Francisco before. Actually the first time I went to California ever was this year when we played in LA.

I am not super familiar with the Bay Area, but I know that the fandom there is amazing with the 49ers. George Kittle, he's an Iowa alum, and I know his wife and him are big supporters of the Valkyries, which is pretty cool, and then also the Warriors out there, the fan base is amazing. I know that sport is going to carry over with the Valkyries, and we've already sold over 20,000 season tickets, so that's really cool and super awesome to see that support, so that's probably what I'm most excited about to get out there.

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Nellie's avatar

No shout out for Hawkeye/Bay Area legend Don Nelson?

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Arnold's avatar

I followed Iowa basketball since Caitlin Clark was a rookie. Kate Martin is an awesome person, but her ceiling is an average 3 and D player. Kayla Thornton is an elite 3 and D player. I hope Lacob plans to get some all-stars in free agency.

If the Valks want to eventually lure Caitlin Clark when she becomes a free agent, I would try to recruit her pals Gabbie Marshall and Monika Czinano to the coaching staff or practice squad.

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